p>The Misleading Call for Circumcision
By Otieno Mbare, PhD (Research Fellow)
I would not have ventured into this sensitive debate if it did not have direct consequences for my children, the posterity of the Luo nation and other non-circumcising communities around the world.
However, the debate has been fueled following a research that was carried out by some researchers in Kenya and Uganda and; consequently published in January 2008 in the BJU International.
Had it not acquired political overtones that sought to authenticate an otherwise a lop-sided research whose methodology, validity, plausibility and veracity are in doubt, I would have not wasted my precious time debating it.
Yet, this issue touches on the very nerves of the communities that are not practicing circumcision. It is an old time debate that has been misguidedly used to show cultural superiority and supremacy among different communities.
The same argument has sadly been used to stigmatize, lower the image and undermine the culture of the Luo community.
Scientific research as evidenced in the Mexico conference has rejected that line of thinking as a dead-end research. It will further give a false hope that a cure has finally arrived albeit with devastating consequences to our society.
It is therefore surprising that none other than my friend Hon. Raila Odinga (no disrespect intended!), who has suffered the wrath of these cultural purists, was the one who went out prescribing the new medicine for the “uncut”. This happened a few days after receiving with his in-laws from central Kenya.
I will not question Hon. Odinga’s wisdom but this is a very sensitive cultural issue that a person of his standing in Luoland and Kenya in particular, cannot afford to discuss it casually they way he did. I understand people have started saying derogatively that “Luoland sasa ni kichinjoni” because the PM has said so! The endorsement for circumcision in the Luo nation is totally unacceptable!
I don’t intend to argue here that our culture is pure and superior. But, let me make it clear that there are certain cultural practices that need to be eradicated without legislation.
Practices such as inheriting someone’s wife whose husband, probably died of aids and, other promiscuous habits. These are issues that have to be addressed and develop a common position not only for one community, but for the entire society.
Abstention and regular use of the condom is the sure way out of the current HIV quagmire. This is what elected leaders should be advocating instead advocating for something which is meant to demean and portray our culture as inferior!
It is for this reason that most members of the community have felt provoked by an assault directed at our culture.
Yet, the research is so hollow that there is no knowing whether the sample group and the control group had been subjected to a full-blown situation to validate their research finding! I do not want to dispute circumcision for those who are practicing it for it is seen as a rite of passage marking a boy’s entrance into adulthood.
Sometimes it was performed as a means of suppressing sexual pleasure, or used as an aid to hygiene where regular bathing was impractical.
At other times, it is performed as a means of differentiating a circumcising group from their non-circumcising neighbors, as a means of discouraging masturbation, or to increase a man’s attractiveness to women, or as a symbolic castration.
The Luos have since used and abandoned other cultural practices that marks the passage of a boy to adulthood. We have refused to embrace circumcision for various reasons; First, circumcision is not part of our culture.
It is foreign! Second, our other objection which is supported by the existing literatures and research is that circumcision changes physical sensitivity in the penis of a man.
A 2007 study funded by an organization which opposes circumcision, and published in the journal BJU International, found a difference in fine touch sensitivity between men who were circumcised and those who were uncircumcised (such that circumcised men had less sensitivity to fine touch in all but one area of the penis).
This same study also compared the sensitivity thresholds at various points on the penis and concluded that the most sensitive part of the uncircumcised penis was more sensitive than the most sensitive parts of the circumcised penis. The authors argue that the parts of the penis removed by circumcision represent the most sensitive parts of the penis.
Similarly, in a poll conducted by an anti-circumcision organization, 61% of men who were circumcised as infants reported decreased sensation over time, which they report resulted in sexual dysfunction.
And recently, a study by DaiSik Kim and Myung-Geol Pang on the “The effect of male circumcision on sexuality” found there was a decrease in masturbatory pleasure and sexual enjoyment after circumcision, indicating that adult circumcision adversely affects sexual function in many men, possibly because of complications of the surgery and a loss of nerve endings.
I do not want to speculate that some high-level conspiracy has been hatched to render Luo men dysfunctional. I will simply stick to the issue which can be corroborated through the overwhelming existing body of knowledge concerning the matter at hand.
Let me further buttress my argument by citing Erickson Paige 1978 article The Ritual of Circumcision, where she writes: “In the United States, the original reason for the surgical removal of the foreskin, or prepuce, was to control ‘masturbatory insanity’ (what the Luo would call, thelo-oyuma!) - the range of mental disorders that people believed were caused by the ‘polluting’ practice of ’self-abuse.’”
And here, she describes “Self-abuse” as a terminology commonly used to describe masturbation in the 19th century. According to Paige, “treatments ranged from diet, moral exhortations, hydrotherapy, and marriage, to such drastic measures as surgery, physical restraints, frights, and punishment.
But how was this conundrum conceived in the Bible. Because the Luo nation have always followed the bible and what was bequeathed to them by Ramogi at Go-Kwer!
The scriptures, which my late father, Jakwath Festo Mbare made his constant book of reference says that the Council of Jerusalem in Acts of the Apostles 15 addressed the issue of whether circumcision was required of new converts to Christianity.
Both Simon Peter and James spoke against requiring circumcision in Gentile converts and the Council ruled that circumcision was not necessary.
However, Acts 16 and many references in the Letters of Paul show that the practice was not immediately eliminated. Paul of Tarsus, who was said to be directly responsible for one man’s circumcision in Acts 16:1-3 and who appeared to praise Jewish circumcision in Romans 3:2, said that circumcision didn’t matter in 1 Corinthians 7:19 and then increasingly turned against the practice, accusing those who promoted circumcision of wanting to make a good showing in the flesh and boasting or glorying in the flesh in Galatians 6:11-13. In a later letter, Philippians 3:2, he is reported as warning Christians to beware the “mutilation”. These teachings and others reinforces the very beliefs we have upheld as a community.
Finally, the American Academy of Pediatrics (1999) stated “There are anecdotal reports that penile sensation and sexual satisfaction are decreased for circumcised males”. Boyle et al. stated that “the genitally intact male has thousands of fine touch receptors and other highly erogenous nerve endings—many of which are lost to circumcision.
They concluded, “Evidence has also started to accumulate that male circumcision may result in lifelong physical, sexual, and sometimes psychological harm as well.”
The caveat that I have to express is that circumcision has not, and will never be part of our culture. Who ever want to do it is free to do so without involving the community. But if you get circumcised, know that they are amputating your foreskin.
One should be informed that the sensitivity that you feel, not only in that skin, but the surrounding tissues, including the glands, will be drastically affected and diminished.
Researchers also allege that not only are the nerve endings gone with the foreskin, but remaining nerve endings are severed, blood flow permanently disrupted, and the shaft skin will be tight, possibly painfully tight.
Several months after this, the sensitivity remaining will begin to fade, and will continue to do so. The warning to our people is, “Circumcision will damage your penis and your sexual ability; that’s what it does”.
Even the British Medical Association has reported that “there is significant disagreement about whether circumcision is overall a beneficial, neutral or harmful procedure. At present, the medical literature on the health, including sexual health, implications of circumcision is contradictory, and often subject to claims of bias in research.”[

16 users commented in " Kenyan PM Raila’s call for male circumcision is harmful, misleading and disgraceful, warns a luo top researcher in Europe "
Follow-up comment rss or Leave a TrackbackOtieno
Your point on circumcision is well corroborated, however, there is a need for
further work on this as the currently documented clinical findings available in
the public domain are littered with a lot of subjective information.
The medics are right to emphasise the need for circumcision as one of the options available to reduce incidence of new infections but it is not the main and only solution.
It should be an individual matter whether to be cut or not. I know a few circumcised Luo friends of mine who did it for their own reasons but were not impressed upon by community leaders or politicians to do it.
It is true that statistics show that Nyanza Province has come out badly in terms of HIV/AIDS infections.
This could be due to a number of reasons rather than being uncircumcised.
Our leaders are right to contribute to this debate but Luo community should be addressing such cultural practices which may excerbate the proliferation of the epidemic such as the age-old ritual of wife inheritance.
Otieno Mbare,
I find your article quite detailed and corraborative with opinions already expressed.
I propose that we can develop an article devoid of partisan opinions but focussing on facts about HIV/AIDS including detailed scientific knowledge about the efficacy of circumsion or otherwise to confirm to ALL KENYANS that they must not be duped by anybody, political or medical, to believe that circumcission has anything to do with CONTROL of HIV/AIDS.
Whereas it may reduce the chance of getting the virus (becuase it adapts the penile tissues to abrassive forces and hence reduces risk of tissue injury, and hence full exposue to the viral particle during intercourse ), it is not scientifically tested and verified method.
Evidence exist even in Kenya to indicate that HIV/AIDS is affecting all circumcised or not with equal measure.
Nyanza’s proximity to AIDS ravaged Southern Africa is responsible for the high incidences coupled with some backward cultural practices like professional wife inheritence, and stupid myths like “EVEN A COW DIES WITH GRASS IN ITS MOUTH” etc It MUST NOT therefore be introduced as a control method if the people involved know what the word CONTROL means.
It can only be encouraged outside the control doctrine. I propose that we conribute funds and have the document (1 to 2 pages) circulated in the print media and radio for 2 to 7 days asserting the true position backed by facts and let someone with contrary proof table it.
Otieno you could redo the paper but direct it to the larger Kenyan audience not just Luos!
I don’t know how much it would cost but we can find out. This is a matter of life and death. Why? Because I know so many poeple who are circumcised and have been infected and are at various stages of the disease.
So what rubbish is this? Why must Kenyans and their leaders get so engrossed in none starter issues like this one!
The time to act is now before fellow Kenyans loose their gaurd and jump into this deadly ship to oblivion Time is of essence
Kenyans,
The prime ministers casual opinion is half-baked political/cultural solution that offers up small potato solutions to Luo land, Teso and Turkana communities in Kenyan pressing unbalanced social and economical problems since independence.
Kenyans who are looking for political assistance from Prime Minister’s wing of government are sadly disappointed because a community without traditions can’t stop spread of Aids, even in west there’s traditions.
In a time of social and economical uncertainty and needs, this opinion of circumcision overwhelmingly under-delivers, pointing to aids paltry increase in the regions. I believe circumcision is a form of rite passage in certain communities not protection.
The prime Minister is offering these communities scraps from his political kitchen tables. These communities are starving for solutions from his government deserve far better.
The sponsor of this sad idea of scientific cult fails to properly invest in Prime ministers priority areas he championed for so many years.
a) Assisting the hard-hit social and economical imbalance and resource sector of the country. His opinion is not even barebones for civic community empowering (CCE) and long-term solutions for historical injustices.
b) It is just away of imposing a government selfish elites threadbare political plan leaving the poor people far shot.
c) Prime Ministers-circumcision plan falls well short of what is needed to repair social, economical and political injustices across Kenya to eliminate claw back of the national poverty and tribal hatrate.
Khaguli Nandwa Maurice.
Western Kenya Movement for Change
Daktari Mbare:
Well stated and written, but I have to disagree with your premise and consequently the conclusion of your argument.
If we are going to argue the validity of circumcision let it be on scientific ground, cultural ground is very slippery.
I do agree with you there is research that refutes the significance of circumcision and its anti - AIDS benefit, but maybe it is time to “err” on the side of saving lives.
Culture is humanly created and there is nothing sacrosanct about any of the practices.
I reject the assumed cultural staticity of the Luo which is at the heart of your argument. You have assumed something called the cultural “Luo nation”, which somehow has agreed, accepted, collective practices and laws.
Students of Luo history will point out that the Kenyan Luo like other Kenyan groups are “mutts” [to put it politely] - made of sub-nations some who trace their roots outside the Luo, ex. the Kano Sidho were Kisii, Kamagambo have Maasai blood, Suba were Bagandas, Kasagam related to the Abasikaami of Bunyore, half of Yimbo traces its lineage to pre-Luo Bantu clan etc. etc.**
My point is that these groups abandoned their practices and introduced others, and they have evolved over time into Luos.
Some of the Suba - still practice circumcision, yet they are Luos by any other definition. There is nothing inherently sacred or permanent about cultural practices - we are the ones who make them so.
Indeed, it was the Kalenjin who introduced the Luhya - Wanga to circumcision, for example. Yet if you follow the current Kenyan news you would think they were born to be circumcised from time immemorial.
You will be suprised to discover that some of the so called Luo practices that you might hold dear were actually originally Bantu or completely foreign [ did you not say your father was a Christian, a very non- Luo religion?]
In relation, as the Luo migrated towards their current homeland they ran into lockjaw among other ailments.
In turn they started the practice of removing the lower six teeth. This in turn evolved into a cultural rite of passage, which lately has been largely discarded partly because it has no use with the arrival of modern medicine.
As for the pleasurability issue, it seems to boil down to either have pleasure and face risk, OR little pleasure and reduce the risk. To me this is the least of concern for a province that has 15% HIV rate, and 25% in some fishing locales like Homa Bay.
In my view, I would rather we err on the side of safety.
With all apologies to Marx:
“Luos of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but our foreskins.”
On Luo history:
H. Ayot: A History of the Abasuba
John Osogo: A History of the Baluyia
Ogot: History of the Southern Luo
Ochieng: The Transformation of a Bantu Settlement into a Luo Ruothdom: A Case Study of the Evolution of the Yimbo Community in Nyanza up to A.D. 1900″;
Mr. Speaker Sir, “…We are not going to deal with political and electoral fraudsters,
masquerading and exercising illegally the executive authority of this nation”
“Simba” Ababu Namwamba
This is a well balanced article which we expected from our interllectuals.We never imigine that some of our top brains should address this issue with alot of emotions which suggest no solutions to our present problem number one.Death in luoland because of the hiv/aids effect.
For a number of years,our people have continously been dying from the diseases which are related to aids.The interllectuals in our communities have spent alot of time analysing
the cause and the impact without offering solutions.When are these our educated people
going to offer pratical solutions?
Many of these our learned elites have been found away of forming NGO to solicite for
help from overseas which in most cases never reached to the grassland.Many of these our interllectuals are not keen to mix with the ordinary luos.
In fact the majority of these interllectuals just mix with their people when they stand for elective posts.It is very sad indeed that our elites have left us to struggle against social and economic problems without their input.
When HIV/AIDs problems started,the luos had the highest number of medical doctors in the
country who never bothered to tell our people the danger which was coming.This attitude of the luo interllectuals of caring about themselves is the contributor of these deaths
in our society.
These interlectuals who are critising Raila for his fatherly advice have been on his camp .Is there something else apart from the advise Raila gave to luos,teso and turkana ,which has created this hot debate?
So far the debate is emotionally being discussed by the diaspora elites without local
participation.
The luos ,teso and turkana in kenya have not dismissed Raila’s fatherly advised on the circumcision.It looks the three tribes are considering the advice positively.Therefore it does not make sense to debate on this issue emotionally and without offering a sound soultion.People on the ground need direct and pratical solutions to their problems.
The luos at home are not now ready to be fed on theories which do not offer solutions.
Infact,that was why many interllectuals who stood for the election during last election never made it to the parliament.Most of them were defeated by former std eight guys.It is because their high education has not brought progress to the society.
Unless,our educated elites change their attitude positively,the luos are not keen to elect them in any posts for many years to come.
All,
I have always thought of circumcision as disrespect of genital integrity. It doesn’t matter to me whether it’s done for cultural or religious or medical or personal reasons.
I will accept this denigration of the male tool only if ones life is in danger and the only way to save that life is to get the cut.
I am inclined to accept that Prime Minister Hon. Raila Odinga believed that the lives of boys in Kenya is in danger and one of the ways to save them is to get cut.
Considering the weight that words from leaders of Hon. Odinga’s status carry, we must move very quickly to review the scientific report Hon. Odinga is referring to and determine if we can reach the same conclusion.
After a sober and scientific review of the research we can get back to the PM and inform him that the data is correct, faulty or need more research. I am disappointed that we do not have leading medical professionals on the ground addressing this issue.
The hue and cry directed at Jakom’s call is amusing considering those who are making the loudest noise.
I can state confidently that one out of every three people who commented on this call is either cut or are the parents of a cut boy.
Elite (for lack of better word) Luos have been cutting their children as far back as the sixties and the number has increased every year.
When the wazungus left, the Luos became the wazungus of Kenya and if you follow this group you will be astounded by the sheer number of cut men and boys in their lineage.
Wazungu did another number on us again when they handed us the Bible and buried our cultural practices each time we open a verse in the Bible.
As a result, the Luos have become private pracitioners of some of their cultures but very publi c noise makers for other cultures they don’t even practice.
Many Luo mothers or Kenyan women in general have been convinced by their OB/GYN to get their boys cut and this is a wide spread practice by those who deliver in hospitals.
Women from tribes that cut for cultural reasons will gladly get their boys cut in the hospital as opposed to facing the knife in some bush.
Others have even persuaded their husbands and boyfriends to go for the cut to get rid of the “white thing” under the foreskin.
Many Luo male parents do not even know that their wives arranged to have their new born boys cut because they do not visit the maternity wards or get close enough to the infants to examine the tools.
In some cases the teen age boys decide to do this on their own due to the influence of girlfriends and male friends, both Luo and non-Luo.
The days Luo boys used to go bathe in the lakes and rivers with their fathers or age mates are long gone.
No cut Luo would dare jump in the water in those days in the glare of their age mates. Nowadays these boys and men have bathrooms in their homes and can keep their secret from just about anybody.
Rushing to cry foul for the Luo culture is misplaced because Luo culture have been neglected by the same Luos who are now reacting with rage.
Why are we all of sudden ready to fight for our culture when it comes to tero nyange (getting cut) but we are ready to let go our culture of tero mon (Wife inheritance is not tero mon but lets leave that for another day) yet both involve HIV/AIDS?
How many Luos here have ever made a courtesy call on Ker Riaga Omolo or responded to his call about the same issue? Ker Riaga is opposed to the cut but there was no rush to support him.
At the last funeral you attended in Luoland what was your reaction to jobul (traditional drummers) and did you hear any oporo/tung (cow horn blowing) at all?
Did you consider tero buch baba (taking away bad spirit from the home) or did you golo ywak jaduong (announcing the death of a male elder) after sun down or in the morning?
Did you tero ayie (money to ask for parent ’s acceptance of intended marriage) by western union or sent your family with cows to your wife’s home?
Have you actually paid dowry for your wife after so many years of marriage? Let us not deal selectively with Luo culture, we need to be serious about it and provide support for its preservation.
The Luos have not done a very good job of teaching their children about the Luo culture.
Occasionally you will find yourself arguing with some Luos on cultural issues and you begin to wonder if they are really Luos or where they get the information.
Internet has been the home of arguements that is not in line with what is actually taking place on the ground.
You will only find a few Luos who have a clear understanding of what tero mon is all about.
Many have jumped on the NGO labeling of it as wife inheritance and the number one contributor of HIV/AIDS. Complete nonesense.
We will only be good defenders of the Luo culture when we learn, practice and support it.
Naming your children Achunga, Ojiko, Oginga is not good enough, even feeding them omena, mariawa, osuga will not do it.
You must teach them about Luo and let them see you practising Luo cultures.This is where I have failed and I believe there are many like me in a nd ouside luoland.
We should take note that the statement by the Prime Minister was directed at boys, “”I am taking the challenge of calling upon elders in the Teso, Luo and Turkana communities to ensure people embrace circumcision of boys, although it has not been part of their culture,”
My interpretation is that he was avoiding a mass exodus by men to the cutting tables by not addressing them directly.
This is because men will rush to get cut then rush to have unprotected sex believing that they are now safe.
The end result of that is an increase in HIV cases and death. A boy on the other hand is a male child still under the guidance of men/women and would not rush to get a cut without permission.
A very small percent of this under 15 years age group engage in unprotected sex and for those who do, their number is not included in the calculation of the HIV prevalence in Kenya by WHO.
Each of us here will testify that many boys have sex and many have HIV but the number is too low to show up on the HIV radar.
Statistics show that more cut Kenyans carry the HIV virus than the uncut. The math is very simple, 1.5 million Kenyans have the virus and HIV prevalence is only 10% in Nyanza province as per WHO.
This fixation with cutting residents of Nyanza province will not make any dent in the number of HIV cases.
Even if every male in Nyanza province were to get cut, the number of HIV cases amongst the cut will always be higher than the cases amongst the uncut.
The big secret in Kenya is that the cut people already know that the cut does not protect them from the virus.
That is why there is no explosion of circumcision ceremonies among the tribes that practice it.
This is only a story because of the prominence of Prime Minister Hon. Raila Odinga.
“In the though I may be right, In the though I may be wrong”, Akuot Diri Nyawanga.
Thura Nyanja,
Cut or uncut, my biggest concern I look at is Disadvantages Vs. Advantages the restare irrelevant.
Anyone can make statements and is subject to correction or challengesfor purposes of getting matters straight.
People make mistakes for luck of knowledge it is not a crime. Therefore, my points:- Cut - the Cut ones dont erect long enough to satisfy a woman, and over years about ages between 50 and 80 they become motionless, they dont stand out to reflect your manhood.
Men’s strength are in their manhood.A woman’s attraction is in the manhood.The man will remain the head of the household not by his word authority but by his manhood, then women of old dint have to seek for outside satisfaction.
Uncut - The Uncut ones remain strong and erect even after 80 years and he remains the bull in the homestead.
No woman will go astray in search of satisfaction.
Women generally takes a little bit longer to musterbate than men. So there is a concern men have to go beyond their time of release to satisfy a women.
Women generally dont talk but this is the essence. Men can thereafter at age 50 to 80 or 90 still re-marry and produce children. I dont have to be a scientist to prove this.
About other Luo traditions, they die as generation come and goes when they become irrelevant.
Today women are educated, enlightened and informed. They have no businesssharing husbands with other women.
Girls too have a right to own family property justlike boys. Women must stand firm on their ground since other women come to loot whatthey have worked hard for.
Especially those who have failed to maintain solidarity in keeping their own marriages.
You either divorce your husband for comitting adultry or keep your marriage by fighting it out.
Government is Leadership of a Nation that begins or originates from a Nuclea Dometicated Home.
If you cannot let your Nation be invaded through external forces so the Domestic Home must be protected. Make use of repellents if possible.
Insights into excellence is use Winning Game Plans to keep a marriage by by all means. Consiquently and in conclussion, God made a perfect creation to have the penis coveredwith a tender sensitive skin that which also is part of the tender touch excitement of thesexual performance.
I therefore love the Uncut. Have a nice day and enjoy your weekend. I Love you all, so do the right thing people.
Mr Nyanja argument does not contain water at all.
We have expert here in Kisumu who are oppose to Raila’s careless directives on male circumcision as way of reducing HIV/AIDS.
Raila is not a doctor and it seems that the more luos keep giving him absolute support the more he is becoming arrogant and a dictator.
I support him in varies political issues such the current constitution reform stand he has taken but nevertheless, we are hesitate to give him a blank cheque on such scientific research opinion particularly a universal pandemic such as HIV/AIDS debate.
The Luo men sexuality last longer than that of cut, just as Judy clearly explained, and Mr Nyanja should weigh his argument when he call luo professionals heading major faculties in the world as Internet mongers.
It unwise for Mr Nyanja to dismiss the Internet discussion and yet it was through the web that Raila campaign and fundraising were conducted. Senate Obama is succeeding in his campaign just through same Internet and web
Luo do not owe Raila anything and therefore he must always stop shifting policies as temporary relief for political scores.
Let us support Raila where is right but we are also obligated to correct him when he is going a stray.
Those who are advocating for male circumsision in Nyanza have missed it altogether. What they are advocating for is as a matter of fact, a risky experiment that will take years if not decades to undo. If you say that circumcision prevents HIV Infection then what you are saying in a layman’s point of view is to recommend unsafe sex.
Lets be responsible. Why are we not thinking of women, if we say that male circumcision is the gun against HIV Infection for men, then what about women???
To all Luo men in Nyanza, don’t follow this directive as getting circumcised will reduce your ”mitness” and overtaking power by more than 50 percent. Circumcission makes the pennis to go numb thus reducing your ability to naturally feel what sex is all about.
Thats my take on this
William
This topic is becoming boring.In fact,we should concentrate on issues which can help our people
reduce poverty.Let us find a way of helping our people by starting economic ventures in luoland to create employments for our youths.
In fact,the main contibutor of aids effect is poverty.Some of young men get involve to unsafe sex because of idleness.We find quite often that youngmen get into wife inherentage
because essential needs which some these widows are ready to provide.These youths are ready to get into this death trap because of poverty.
Instead of spending all our life debating on this complex- cultural issue,we should embark
on other pressing issues like education,health investment,agriculture and pollutions.
We should encourage our people develop our agriculture to care of our food security adequately.These are the kind of debates which are benefit to our community.We should use our education to help luo community.
Long time ago we had leaders who were educated in Makarere who was the only college in the region.These educated luos were very many and most of them indeed ignored our community and never mixed with the ordinary.
These luo leaders never bothered to leave their impact and lagacy in the luoland.Many of those educated luos died poor and frustrated because they never helped their community to prepare them for the future.To those leaders,having their own children and little money were their
success.
Raila’s father who was also Makarerian used his education to teach the community and help
them attained education unlike his peer group. Odinga extended the benefit of education to all
kenya irrespective of your tribe. Tom Mboya also did the same thing.In fact, Raila is just
enjoying the seed is father planted.
Therefore,we should avoid being selfish by engaging ourselves on productive debates which
can help our people to come out of problem of poverty.If poverty probem can solve,then most of community problems will be contained.
We should also now that coliation government was forced on panu and they are working hard
to destroy it.If you have problem with Raila you should give him time to settle down.Though
it is known that the luos are democratic and straightforward,we should also start be respectable.
The position Raila is holding is very important for kenyans and the personality
occupying the post should get respect.
Good People,
First, my 10th great grandfather Ragem, asserts that this debate is healthy and will not necessarily be won by science. In fact, we’ll all be winners if we can save even one life, either by changing a behavior or reducing HIV susceptibility even by .0001% if circumcision does it.
My 10th also commands that freedom of expression must be accorded to all, Prime Minister included, because he has again taken the lead in opening discussion not only about circumcision, but risk behavior particularly in Luo culture. This is why I call him Thuon.
Indeed scientists have added their weight here by telling us that circumcision does not reduce the risk of HIV infection significantly. I put it to you that that which is considered insignificant in this possible extinction matter, might in fact be what will save us as a people. Instead of castigating the PM, let the scientists rededicate their time and resources and say without a doubt that circumcision does NOT reduce the risk of HIV infection.
Some have alluded here that they like sex natural and prefer their men uncut. Some men have defended the position not to cut, not necessarily because it will not significantly reduce HIV infection, but because it is against our culture. It is hard to win an argument with these people, but it is worth a try. Here is my testimony.
Through the advice of my 10th great grandfather Ragem, I underwent the cut as an adult. I ate the good fruit plenty of times before and after the cut.
The sad news is that natural was indeed sweeter. But this debate is not about preserving culture or fruit sweetness but life. Another thing is that after the cut my libido went down significantly. No, do not feel sorry for me, because I am glad the cut saved me and perhaps my spouse from the risk others might have posed. Prior to the cut, I did not only like to look at,
but want to touch and to be touched in return, and even eat the fruit which was not mine. After the cut, I also last longer while eating the fruit.
Let us face the truth people. My 10th agrees that the reason ‘Tero’ became our culture, is because uncut, our libido is too high, and through our chauvinism, we forced our women to accept ‘Tero’ as our culture. Of course ‘Tero’ had its own benefits then, but we must now agree to end it due to HIV infection risk.
Needless to say that the biggest sex organ is the brain, which if educated on safe sex or abstinence, is less risky or costly and can save a culture, but again not necessarily a life. Sex is a need that is met after desire.
Can this desire be reduced? Isn’t this the reason why FGM was/is practised? I say that FGM is good if it reduces desire, which in turn prevents risk behavior.
Judy says women flock to us, and we love them too because natural is sweeter, true. If cutting reduces fruit sweetness, it must also reduce desire, and this alone can save a life. This is the secret behind cutting which no one wants to say aloud.
Have a safe but fruitful night won’t you.
–
Joram Ragem
wuod Ndinya, wuod Onam, wuod Amolo, wuod Owuoth, wuod Oganyo, wuod Mumbe,
wuod Odongo, wuod Olwande, wuod Adhaya, wuod Ojuodhi, wuod Ragem! (Are you
my relative?)
My dear friend Nyanja,
I think we are making a small debate be bigger than what is should be. If you critically read through your writing, the contradictions are glaring. The simple mistake we are all making is that of trying to mix medical issues with cultural
issues.
You cannot argue convincingly and using statistics that so many circumcised men did not contract HIV/AIDS compared with so many uncircumcised men who got infected and make a conclusion about the transmission of HIV?AIDS.
In experimental sciences there are normally treatments and a control in any experiment that we use to discuss and interpret the results.
In more refined science processes are used to explain findings to supplement the statistics. Those arguing thus should go a step further using process science to explain their results.
When we have a very complete picture and understanding of the process then we draw convincing conclusions and carry the masses in the process.
We know from common and circulating knowledge that HIV/AIDS is transmitted through blending of clean body fluids with infected body fluids in specific habitats that are conducive to the survival of the HIV Virus.
Moreover the HIV Virus barely lives for 30 seconds outside a body habitat. If the circumcised man without the use of condom stays in contact inside an infected woman’s body for more than thirty seconds, he suffers the same risk like the uncircumcised man of contracting HIV/AIDS.
This likewise happens to an infected man staying in contact with healthy woman for a similar duration.
We have further learnt that there are individual gene attributes that make some people be of less risk than others, and so forth.
What I am saying is that the science must be right before we use it to make
recommendations.
In Medical Science and I am not a Medic, before recommending any treatment or using
any drug in a prescription, there are a minimum number of iterations that your drug
or treatment must undergo for verification and before being accepted as a prescription drug or way of treatment.
What I am saying is that we should not mix culture with medicine. Cultural changes
are caused by societal pressures, experiences, individual or communal expectations,
aspirations and general benefits that the new status creates for the individual or
the community.
Each individual in such a circumstance makes a choice based on the glaring facts surrounding him or her. For example, our parents had the choice of sending us to school or leaving us to stay at home education.
The wiser ones chose to educate their children to enable them participate in a modern world.
In conclusion, I don’t think we have reached a good scientific stage to make some statements about who is at higher risk or lower risk just based on circumcision.
I still believe that as a precaution, we should bring to a bare minimum (Zero) our
sexual misadventures and if we must do it then it has to be through protected sex.
Let the Biological Scientists give us a prescription or an immunity strategy since
this is what will make the Human Race survive HIV/AIDS.
I rest my case.
Wananchi,
This has been a very enlightening debate. I want to thank the news outlets that helped us extend this debate outside the Internet. I hope that the views that have freely flowed will help shape the opinions of other players before they jump on this short-cut prescription.
As I always say, short-cuts always leads to vilages known us “I wish I Knew”!
http://www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/-/440808/463148/-/3l80xx/-/index.html
http://majimbokenya.com/home/2008/08/20/kenyan-pm-railas-call-for-male-circumcision-is-harmful-misleading-and-disgraceful-warns-a-luo-top-researcher-in-europe/#comment-4099
http://africanpress.wordpress.com/2008/08/20/the-misleading-call-for-circumcision/
Thank you all!
Ei, Mano wach ma pek ka lwanda
We need to talk matters with substance in this forum. We need to ask Hon. Raila questions on things like:
1.What about the constitution changes he promised to embark on once he gets into the Government.
2.What about corruption and accountability.
3.Addressing the needs of the constituents who were beaten and displaced for no reason.
4. What about many issues affecting our beautiful country, Kenya.
Circumcision!
You will not change a people’s culture overnight. The new generation may do so gradually if there is need for a medically related concern. Let this topic go and rest. Thanks to all contributors.
Before jumping to campaigns for mass circumcision, there is need to pay high attention to the risks. Studies (Brewer D. et al. “Male and Female Circumcision Associated with Prevalent HIV Infection in Virgins and Adolescents in Kenya, Lesotho and Tanzania”. Annals of Epidemiology. 2007; 17:217-226) indeed indicated that circumcision increase risks of contracting HIV. To campaign for widespread circumcision among traditionally non-circumcising communities will send the wrong signals of false freedom from HIV, and with the terrible fear of the dreadful disease, many of the ignorant people would rush in a bid to be more safe yet will be more exposed. Where are the hygienic clinics for them to go for the circumcision? With the high poverty among the traditionally non- circumcising community in western Kenya, most will resort to cheap unhygienic back street clinics and traditional circumcisers. Back street clinics, rarely sterilize instruments or they pretend to do so. Their economics cannot allow proper sterilization. Clinics considered to be reliable have been reported to be lacking proper instruments and supplies necessary for hygienic circumcision (Bailey R. C. et al. “Male Circumcision for HIV prevention: a prospective study of complications in clinical and traditional settings in Bungoma, Kenya”. Bulletin of the World Health Organization, 2008; 86:669-677). Poor state of hospitals in sub-Saharan Africa is a likely factor for high incidences and spread of generalized HIV (Gisselquist D. “Points to Consider: Responses to HIV/AIDs in Africa, Asia and the Caribbean”. Adonis & Abbey, London. 2007) in this region, compared to more developed countries.
Infections have even been associated with circumcisions that were done as part of studies. If in such studies, more awareness and even care were expected by those involved, then the case may be worse when mass circumcision are recommended for a community who have had no prior history of circumcising. A study carried out in Kisumu (Bailey R. C. et al. “Male Circumcision for HIV prevention in young men in Kisumu, Kenya: a randomized controlled trial”. Lancet. 2007; 369:643-56) that concluded circumcision as being protective against HIV infection in men has not been adequately reported – it is insulting to the community to give only partial information from the study. For instance, (a) The study did not investigate possibly HIV transmission through the clinic that circumcised 4 men with new HIV infections observed 1 month after circumcision; (b) the study reports that 4 of 7 early infections were in men who reported no sex exposures, but does not report similar information on how many other infections were observed in men who reported no sexual exposures; (c) the study does not report blood exposures during follow-up as risks for new infections, even though a study of risks for prevalent HIV infections among men who volunteered for the study found that a variety of blood exposures (injections, tattoos, blood exchange, and saro) explained most infections.
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